almost bug free?

[Gleeok]

No, I was referring to the zc devs and the sort of domino like effect we see here where everyone just assumes it's all lies, and at any moment someone's going to add in a weapon editor and enemy scripting engine and thus effectively add two million new bugs into zc. You misunderstood.

[Freedom]

Then I stand corrected, my apologies.

[ShadowTiger]

From the way I'm looking at it, there is nothing to distinguish "A Stable new release version" from "Build 2,500" from "The least unstable beta" from "The official 2.5" at all. One could make the argument that no new features should be added, (And then one would have to define "feature.") and then one could suggest that all unfinished features remain unfinished until all the bugs are ironed out of what already exists, release that as the milestone public release, and then finish off the unfinished features, debug those, and then release THAT as yet another public milestone release because that one is both stable and finished. Because again, some define finished as being bug-free, and some define finished as being both bug-free and completely inclusive of everything the features suggest it should have with nothing being incomplete.

Considering that the unfinished things can just be completed immediately after the milestone release, there's no need to complete any currently worked-on features now. So it doesn't really matter that things can go unfinished. The most important thing is the bug-fixed, rather than the completeness of the program by which to call it a finished 2.5 product.

Besides - 2.5 doesn't sound nearly as official as ZC 3.0.

[Anthus]

Uhh guys...Newsflash. 2.5 is considered feature complete and 99% of the remaining work that needs to be done is nothing but bug fixes. Didn't anyone get the memo I sent out? :P

Hey, in all sincerity, I missed that one :P I am quite glad though; to hear it "officially" at least.

From the way I'm looking at it, there is nothing to distinguish "A Stable new release version" from "Build 2,500" from "The least unstable beta" from "The official 2.5" at all. One could make the argument that no new features should be added, (And then one would have to define "feature.") and then one could suggest that all unfinished features remain unfinished until all the bugs are ironed out of what already exists, release that as the milestone public release, and then finish off the unfinished features, debug those, and then release THAT as yet another public milestone release because that one is both stable and finished. Because again, some define finished as being bug-free, and some define finished as being both bug-free and completely inclusive of everything the features suggest it should have with nothing being incomplete.

Considering that the unfinished things can just be completed immediately after the milestone release, there's no need to complete any currently worked-on features now. So it doesn't really matter that things can go unfinished. The most important thing is the bug-fixed, rather than the completeness of the program by which to call it a finished 2.5 product.

Besides - 2.5 doesn't sound nearly as official as ZC 3.0. :p

Ooh, the semantics game :o This is a good point though. I think either way people would bitch. If a stable, yet "incomplete" version was released, you know... people would get pissed. To be frank, I think this is the best route, and I think people can just suck it up. I also think that as you also stated, the incomplete features could be finished after a new big release. Now, for me, and I'm sure other will agree, stability is more a component of "completeness" than a bunch of maybe-it-won't-crash features :s

So, if what Gleeok said is true; about just working on bug fixes as of now, I'll gladly jump in and do what I can to test (though, I only have had one very minor bug in quiet a long time, and I could not replicate it :s) It was during the feature jam of the last two years that I kinda of seriously lost hope, and interest.

I'm all for a capped off, yet stable version.

[jman2050]

ZC 2.5 is an object lesson of what feature creep can do to any project. I take a great amount of responsibility for the mess, but it also doesn't help when my mistakes are dragged through the mud repeatedly at a time when I don't spend as much time working on ZC as I used to, and when I do it's fixing whatever bugs I can and hopefully stumbling upon a solution for stuff that's a lot more complicated (the mp3 mess being an example). That's part of why I quit the first time, if you'll remember. I came back because I felt that I had made this partially my responsibility and that I should see it through to the end, for better or for worse.

Also, while it's still on my mind, I haven't forgotten about the 4th quest contest. The plan was always to determine the winner shortly before 2.5 released.

[Freedom]

I don't think anyone means to drag your name through the mud Jman, the situation just got to a point that it got far more frustrating than a lot of people wanted to deal with.
there's plenty of blame to go around, not just with developers, but with testers, builders and everyone else.
People calling for new features daily, when they don't even build and release quests to begin with.
People reporting bugs and then never following through.
Today it is what it is and it's a new day, if everybody pulls together it can happen.

[Petoe]

if everybody pulls together it can happen.

Are you serious? I mean really? Do you still believe there's a chance for a "stable" ZC 2.5 being released some day after all what has hapened? Because I see you are testing again, and if you have faith, then just maybe I can regain my faith as well and start testing. All the guys who here think that I'm just a whining asshole who hates the developers do not realize how important ZC is for me and how many hours I have invested into the program. If there's even a small chance that ZC might be good again, I'm ready to to do some work to see that day come.

[Freedom]

I really don't know how serious the developers are Petoe about trying to get a version stable and release it.
I decided to try and finish my quest since it was so far along, I've been trying to report what bugs I find along the way.
They seem to get serious when the hell raising threads come alone, and then settle back into indifference once things quiet down again, so who can say.
I want to finish this one, but have no real plans to start another.