The Liberation of Hyrule: Insanity's Extreme

[James24]

The Liberation of Hyrule: Insanity's Extreme

That's right folks! The Liberation of Hyrule - arguably the most difficult, controversial and notorious quest ever made has returned - with its extreme version! Most normal Zelda players like to think of Lost Isle as their mecca. Well, maybe challenge quest players will come to accept LoH:IE as the equivalent in their world. You may want to get the game and start playing right now, but please read on because what I have to say will save a lot of people a lot of heartache. There is also a new generation of players who might not know about the biggest divide in the Zelda Classic World and what they need to know to avoid it.

You see, there are two distinct types of players who enjoy Zelda Classic. Type A players enjoys graphics, puzzles, a great story line, very low difficulty. The kinds of quests that have rated well with them include DarkFlameWolf's Lost Isle, Russ's Light of the Heavens, Nick and Link's Fairy Dream, Cole's Souls of Wisdom and MBWChampion's Hero of Dreams. The vast majority of Zelda Classic players are type A players simply because Nintendo's Zelda currently is type A - but type A is not always how Nintendo has written Zelda. Arguably, the original Zelda was written for a very different kind of player - type B players.

Type B players are the exact opposite of type A and they like very challenging quests with high difficulty and the rest of the quest including graphics, puzzles, storyline is a nice bonus but isn't very important. DarkFlameWolf affectionately calls us the "insanely gung-ho" players and has written numerous extreme quests intended to cater for our tastes. The kinds of quests that have rated well with them include OUCH!'s Armageddon Quest, my own Liberation of Hyrule, Nightmare's James quests, Phantom Menace's Demo quest, Jerome's the Hero Without a Name, Saffith's Eight Objects and Gleeok's mini-quests. Some even argue that Nintendo's first and second quests are type B due to dungeon 6 in the first quest, the difficult 2nd quest for newcomers, the lack of nice graphics and storyline. Type B players are the minority.

Every time the topic of type B quests comes up, there is a lot of conflict and disharmony and I have thought about the underlying reasons for this. Essentially, there is a cultural misunderstanding at the heart of the problem. In type A quests, the quest maker is assumed to be writing the quest to entertain the audience. In type B quests, the quest maker is assumed to be writing the quest to entertain themselves first and the audience second. In type A quests, the quest maker is expected to let the player win. In type B quests, the player only wins if they are of equal or better ability than the quest maker. In type A quests, the quest maker is expected to adjust the level of difficulty to suit the majority of player's abilities. In type B quests, the quest maker is expected to adjust the level of difficulty to make the quest challenging to themselves. In type A quests, the quest is expected to have bug free and beautiful graphics - the slightest graphical bug is grounds for major criticism and low ratings. In type B quests, nice graphics are not very important and are only of trivial concern. In type A quests, if a few players think the quest is too hard, the quest maker will usually make it easier to suit them. In type B quests, the onus is on the player to improve their abilities if the quest is too hard for them. If you're a type A player I do welcome you to visit LoH:IE on the condition that you respect these cultural differences.

LoH:IE was NOT written for a type A audience and a type A player attempting to play this quest on the assumption that it was written for type A culture will only result in disharmony and conflict. This is not some conjecture or wild theory. This is proven fact - proven by the many comments and ratings about type B quests by type A players available on the database. Highly presumptuously, some type A players expect that anything put on the database is intended for a type A audience and immediately rate something badly when they find out otherwise - completely ignoring the fact that they have only played a tiny portion of the quest. I do not welcome such players to visit LoH:IE. A type B quest maker's truthful and frank answer regarding the playing ability of players who make such comments and ratings is one that can easily ignite conflict and so such situations must be avoided. And the best way to avoid such situations is for type A players to refrain from playing LoH:IE. To that end, I will not be putting LoH:IE on the database.

In accordance with type B culture, LoH:IE is solely intended to entertain myself and a small type B audience of Zelda experts. It is NOT intended to "have a go" at type A players. There is nothing for a type A player to see in LoH:IE - no fancy graphics, no neat storyline, no puzzles, just a whole bunch of dungeon 6 except way, way, harder. The only thing that a type A player might want to play LoH:IE for is because beating very difficult challenge quest proves that you are a Zelda expert. It is highly unlikely that a type A player will be able to finish LoH:IE without cheating so please don't waste your time trying. It is far better for type A players to accept that they are casual players and not Zelda experts.

If you are a type A player and would like to visit LoH:IE, send me an email (jamesng323[at]gmail[dot]com) and tell me why you want to visit LoH:IE.

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In the following I address type B "challenge quest" players - my intended audience - only...

I know the truth about you...you who have beaten Liberation, Armageddon and 0 gamed countless other challenge quests. Yes, I know you quite well. Beneath that cold, hard exterior lies a dark, horrible secret. You are a type A player pretending to be a type B player. You beat Liberation by putting on the gold ring, you beat Armageddon by switching quest files so that you could get a gold ring and to prevent deaths in other challenge quests you ended the game and continued. Ever heard of the song "the great pretender"? That's you...

What are you going to do about my taunts? Report me? Rate Liberation badly after having died many times miserably? Put on the gold ring in Liberation, watch a few walkthroughs on YouTube and then lecture and criticize me thinking that you are an expert challenge quest player? Pretend that you've 0-gamed Liberation because it makes you look good in front of everyone else? Rate Liberation badly because you want to be popular amoungst your type A friends who also think its bad? Is that how challenge quest players respond when their ability is disputed? I hope not. There's only one way a true challenge quest player - an expert in Zelda - responds to such taunts. Prove that you are an undisputed authority on all things Zelda.

And that is THE reason for playing my latest, and final, quest - The Liberation of Hyrule: Insanity's Extreme. Play because you want to prove that you are amougst they very best players to have ever played this great game we know as Zelda. Play because you know in your heart that you have mastered all aspects of Zelda gameplay. Play because you have cat-like agility, lightning quick reflexes, the strength of an ox and the cunning of Master Yoda. Play because you know that if you can't beat a challenge then no one else can and its impossible. Play because you love the thrill of a good challenge - the speed, the suspense, the thrill, the adreneline, the disappointment of losing by a tiny margin and the ecstasy of winning.

I promise you, the difficulty in Insanity's Extreme has never been seen in any other challenge quest before. It is at a level far above both Armageddon and Liberation. It is the most intense, nightmarish, brutal, insane, twisted, excrutiating, horrible, merciless, cruel, devilish and painful challenge ever. Its what we love to hate, but we all agree that the type A alternative is not the answer. At the same time, the challenge is intriguing, creative, fun, enjoyable and when you beat a challenge you will be walking on air. A true "stroke of brilliant autistic genius" as Gleeok likes to put it.

Yes, there will be pain and frustration. Most of you will get stuck somewhere along the way and die many times without getting anywhere. The agony that you will feel at this point is indescribable. I experienced it several times during James Quest and then Armageddon Quest. This is the moment that truly defines you. Everyone knows how to win when its easy, but not everyone knows how to win when faced with what appears to be insurmountable odds. With your ironclad resolve and dogged determination, you know that you are a true challenge quest player at heart and you will eventually prevail and emerge a better, stronger player than ever before.

Aside from challenges and difficulty there are secondary reasons to play LoH:IE. I used Radien's beautiful DoR tileset - but don't let the beautiful graphics fool you into thinking its a type A quest. Scripting has allowed me to fix niggling problems and add really nice new features. And there's the story, made a few interesting twists to plot.

I've left this quest unpassworded because challenge quest players said I had an unfair advantage because I know where everything is in the original LoH. You are invited to look around in the quest file to see where everything is especially if you are stuck on puzzles/secrets. Zelda Classic Quest Editor doesn't have a read only mode so if you do decide to make things easier for yourself there isn't much I can do, but don't you dare brag about your win if you do. Modifying my quest for anything except bug fixing (touch wood) is like taking the gold ring in the original LoH - and we all know what to think about players who do that...

Send me an email (jamesng323[at]gmail[dot]com) if you're interested in LoH:IE. Feel free to give it out to other challenge quest players or type A players as outlined above. And please, make walkthroughs of LoH:IE - show me what you're made of. I do welcome all feedback from type B players who have finished the quest, but please, don't give me a type A criticism of "your graphics are bad/buggy" - you know what our culture is.

[Nightmare]

James24, your topic got closed on PureZC. I'm glad you posted this here, because I want to address a few points:

1. Obviously, you're a very good ZC player.
2. You should never insult your fanbase, if you get an infraction at PureZC, it's deserved.

That being said, I think there is a growing problem of making quests for casuals, experienced players, and the elite. It's hard to please everybody in one shot. Everybody has different tastes, everybody has different feelings. Some people like graphics. Some like me, really care the least about fancy graphics, and as long as it looks sensible, it's cool to play. It's why I prefer the Classic Tileset. I am a Zelda 1 person at heart.

As for shutting your big mouth, I suggest someone take out the video recorder and LP his quest, and show it being beat without cheating. This will take care of the problem.

But I do advise one thing: Don't make a quest that goes after the best player. If you do that, you'll end up with people that get 300+ deaths or more. They won't enjoy your quest, they'll put it down. And because they're not paying for it, they'll have no incentive to finish. I made that mistake years ago with James Quest 2 gearing towards TSA.

Otherwise, let the debate begin on some of these topics. It's about time this got addressed.

-James

[Shane]

Why do we need something worse than Liberation of Hyrule.

Not only does it sound like you made it more of a headache, the advertising in itself is one. You came across as a huge ego who thinks he knows the definition of gaming -- specifically the Zelda series -- and challenges in general. Let me tell you, as a person who enjoys a reasonable challenge, I don't think what you made to be a challenge. Like, at all. Throwing in hundreds of overpowered enemies is no challenge. It's lazy design choices that you are trying to get away with through sheer absurdity. A reasonable challenge is something that can't be found in the three infamous words that is "Liberation of Hyrule". Call me this "Type A", I love graphics. I love music. I love story. I love challenges. But I don't like Liberation of Hyrule. It's obviously using graphics outside simplicity boundaries. You are using music that does not fit the heated "challenges" that lay within your quest and there is a story that goes beyond the basics of Zelda 1, but it was poorly executed like most aspects. But does this mean challenges were done well? No. Not at all. I'm going to be completely frank, they were unfair more than anything. And to mock people for beating your pile of "challenges" is just pure salt on a brutal wound. That's not how you treat your "Type B" buddies. If you are wondering why people claim Nintendo is failing -- it's because they think their advertisement quality is poor. Now think about how you are advertising this.

"Zelda expert"? Oh please, like you said, most quests and canon games are "Type A", so how is it that the minority are the superior beings in the Zelda fanbase? A foolish publicity stunt if you ask me. And these "Type B" games that is Zelda 1 and 2 had made use of aesthetics. They made a good soundtrack. They made a good storyline. All of these aspects had a depth of effort put into it. And best part is their challenges were reasonable. If you want a challenge quest, look into why Zelda 1 and 2 are beatable by most. If you want ratings that aren't low, you are going to have to embrace their reasoning or accept your quest isn't liked. There is no reason to degrade opinions here. And for that, I am merely here to defend my right regarding my review on Liberation of Hyrule. I feel as if you just want five stars with every rating, and only that.

That is all, I shall not even repeat my opinion. I hope you consider the same.

That said, good luck with your projects regardless. I hope ratings are in your favor, like any other quest maker would hope for.

[Gleeok]

Anyway, Screenshots:


In this room you have to kill all the enemies with one candle attack.





Here, you have to cross the trap with one heart.



That's all there is at the moment because I haven't gotten any farther than that.

Synopsis thus far: It's really hard. So amaze. Much die. Very Stalfos. wow.


James24: You should slightly change the 2-way radio script to not repeat every time you reenter a room. It's really, really annoying. A really easy fix for this have a global array that stores whether or not the message was already displayed. If so, the script just quits. [edit] Okay, I think they quit at a certain point... odd. Must be checking if Link->Item[] or something similar. Still, the nitpick still stands, but I see you've noticed that as well.

[King Aquamentus]

the radio idea is really neat, but maybe it'd work better as an item that gives a message when you use it?

[SUCCESSOR]

I must say I am disappointed that you are holding your own quest hostage. I am a player that enjoys a full experience as well as a decent challenge. I can understand appreciating challenge above all else. I also appreciate that people can be dicks and be harsh and overly critical of anything different. This is the internet after all. I enjoy games that require a great deal of skill. I would play your quest. Would I beat it? Probably not. But then again I can't remember having completed any quest really. ADD is a bitch. Really, what is the point of making a quest if you don't want people to play it?

[Nightmare]

Well, I have to say from the screenshots it looks beautiful, especially for a challenge quest. Unfortunately no one will see that though.

-James

[James24]

What people need to understand is that I wrote LoH and LoH:IE to entertain myself. If my audience is entertained by my quest then I'm happy for them and I'll gladly entertain them because it costs me nothing. But the primary motivation is my own enjoyment. If my audience's suggestions are aligned with my own tastes and enjoyment then I will implement them. But if they are conflicting then everyone should be under no illusions that I will favour myself first. I don't expect any other quest maker to change their quest to suit my tastes over their own and I expect other people to respect my position likewise. Sorry if this sounds harsh and selfish, but its the truth and as a believer in free speech I think its far better I communicate it than hide it. The only concession I will give you is that the quest is not passworded so feel free to change it to suit yourself but it isn't my work anymore if you do that.

I know that various type B quest makers have caved in the past - OUCH! with his AQF and Gleeok once or twice. But as for me...never ever ever ever ever ever ever. I will never make my quest easier to appease everyone else above my own enjoyment. I know that the price I will pay is a very small audience but I am happy to pay that price and that is my decision to make. Please respect it no matter how you feel otherwise.

Gleeok - I never put in anything to disable the noises. They were slightly irritating to me but not enough to motivate me to go through to bother writing code to disable them. You know how it is right? Benefits vs. cost when doing something. Plus there might be occasions when the player wants them repeated, so I decided not to do anything. If you want to disable them please feel free - you have my blessing that its not cheating - but from my limited scripting experience I don't see how it can easily be done with what you're suggesting. If you could teach me and its easily doable, I'd be happy to put that in.

King Aquamentus - did you get a hold of LoH:IE? I don't think the radio can work like that because my intention was to message the player when they touched certain flagged points in the quest and the messages must come at the point to have any meaningful impact.

Nightmare - the graphics were from Radien's DoR tileset - publically available and quite easy to use. Radien even gave me his blessing to use it. Type A players sure have their strengths over us in this area, so I took a leaf out of their book.

[Shane]

I don't think you quite got what I was getting at. I respect your quest making decisions, but that doesn't exactly mean I can not give criticism, regardless if I'm a "Type A" or "Type B". If you believe in free speech, then maybe you should consider letting people freely express what they feel about your work? I have no problem with you making a "Type B" quest, but when you try to degrade "Type A" players and quests - and even gamers and games - by describing them like some inferior inexperienced people and such... That's where I think you're inching across the line between free speech and shoving your opinion down people's throats to avoid hearing their own. I am not saying either "Type" is better, but I am saying this definition of a "Zelda expert" seems kinda flat considering you said yourself the majority of Zelda content is "Type A". That's my point I am trying to get across, and like you said, I want to see some respect on my views and my freedom of speech.

That said, I am highly uninterested in playing your future quests, sorry. Especially after painstakingly beating your quest only to hear publicity stunt mockery. Want some honest advice? Instead of sounding like you want "Type A" players to avoid this quest and then suggest to ""Type A" players disguised as "Type B" players" (which in general, seems kinda silly to target this at "Zelda experts" considering we are on a Zelda-themed site)... just get straight to the point. Making a giant rant with little to no quest content isn't going to make the quest the center of attention. I just feel your post kind of derailed the point of why you are here is all.

Well, this shall be my last post. I promised myself and the staff that the last one would be my last, but I needed to address this. So above all else, I shall resist if another urge rises to avoid derailing the topic somewhat. I do like the sound of your ideas, and some of your screen design has improved since your first quest, but like you said, it ain't for me. But I do like a challenge provided it's got pattern and education. *shrugs*

[Tamamo]

1. You insulted me not to mention everyone else.
2. Remember how I told you I zero gamed your amazing quest.
You said I cheated because I kept retrying to Ninja the Hookshot off the death knight I say fuck you. I swear It was like this was MGS +Ninja Gaiden + Mega Man II on difficult.
3. You refuse to listen Nightmare, he makes Challenge quest for living. You could learn a thing or two from him. >_>
4. You're trying to copycat ouch and are failing miserably.
5. YOLO
6. The quest was overall cheap and disappointing, with excessive amounts of food, stimulants, and mountain dew "or whatever gamer fuel you prefer" anyone could beat it pretty easily. If they have the patience required.
7. You need a lot of patience to complete this quest. Bad idea