Problem with the 3rd quest

[ZoriaRPG]

OK. I just wanted to help to make the quest playable without the absolute necessity to reset the game, also referring to the above text from Saffith.

If you WOULD stuck on the NES, because a 1-way-shutter shut down behind you and there isn't a further door and you have no bombs, you must reset the game (if you don't know with the second controller). Dying or reset is almost the same, because you can save thousand times, if you still have only a half heartpeace

A dialog:

people 1: I'm the best zelda player!

people 2: You also beat the 3rd and 4th quest?

people 1: Of course!

people 2: Really?

people 1: YES!!!

people 2: Without dying?

people 1: YEAH! I'm the best!!

people 2: And how many resets?

people 1: ...oh...mhmmhm....

people 2: HOW MANY RESETS?

people 1: Bloody hell! There were 7 resets!

people 2: 7 resets???? Why? You entered a room and there was no way out?

people 1: 3 rooms with no way out and 4 times I saved before they killed me.

people 2: HAHAHA!!! LOSER!!

I don't disagree with fixing this kind of softlock. The problem, is that I do not have the authority to do it, and I don't believe that Alphadawg is around to ask about it. It's completely possible that his design decision to create that sort of situation, was intentional.

[Gleeok]

In hindsight you should probably go to the 3rd quest if you died zero times regardless of other things.

We can fix the 3rd quest if there's actually a bug in it. What screen number, and what would the proposed fix be?

[Nightmare]

I would say to definitely fix softlock situations Zoria. Those are unacceptable.

The bug provider should provide video evidence to show it's a real bug and not user error/lack of skill though.

-James

[James24]

If you play the 3rd quest in 1.92 B183 its actually a lot more difficult than if you play in 2.53. This is because of the enemy weapon half-tile offset. In 1.92 (the version Alpha Dawg wrote and tested the 3rd quest under), combat was a lot more difficult because if Link was a half-tile up, down, left or right from an enemy projectile weapon the game engine still counted that as a "hit" whereas in 2.53 the game engine counts that as a "miss". So, if you're playing the 2.53 version, you're not playing the author's "true" mode - you're playing a nerfed mode that's due to ZC's game engine changing. This should be fixed but I don't think it will because it would be too costly to change the game engine.

[Nightmare]

If you play the 3rd quest in 1.92 B183 its actually a lot more difficult than if you play in 2.53. This is because of the enemy weapon half-tile offset. In 1.92 (the version Alpha Dawg wrote and tested the 3rd quest under), combat was a lot more difficult because if Link was a half-tile up, down, left or right from an enemy projectile weapon the game engine still counted that as a "hit" whereas in 2.53 the game engine counts that as a "miss". So, if you're playing the 2.53 version, you're not playing the author's "true" mode - you're playing a nerfed mode that's due to ZC's game engine changing. This should be fixed but I don't think it will because it would be too costly to change the game engine.

This is why I've asked for the half-tile trick to be implementable in all versions. I personally want the Zelda mechanics in my quests, but no clue if AlplhaDawg did or not, there's no way to ask him or tell what he wants. This is why I feel it should be a universal emulation feature.

Good point James24.

-James

[James24]

Well, we should be able to work with the assumption that the version he made the 3rd quest with was the way he intended the game to be played. Clearly ZC changed from the time he made the quest till now, so therefore its only right that ZC revert that change so that people can play the quest as he originally meant it to be played. There's a NES fix rule in 2.53 right now the "correct enemy weapon offset" rule which does this, but it would have to be retrospectively applied to all quests made from the 1.92 era.

[ZoriaRPG]

If you play the 3rd quest in 1.92 B183 its actually a lot more difficult than if you play in 2.53. This is because of the enemy weapon half-tile offset. In 1.92 (the version Alpha Dawg wrote and tested the 3rd quest under), combat was a lot more difficult because if Link was a half-tile up, down, left or right from an enemy projectile weapon the game engine still counted that as a "hit" whereas in 2.53 the game engine counts that as a "miss". So, if you're playing the 2.53 version, you're not playing the author's "true" mode - you're playing a nerfed mode that's due to ZC's game engine changing. This should be fixed but I don't think it will because it would be too costly to change the game engine.

Ah, this is because the uest was last saved in a 2.50 build. The old build of the quest, from 1.92, should not have this issue. I could also easily make a build of 3rd with that bit enabled, and make it available as a 'more pure' version as extra DLC.

You can toggle the halftile collision for quests made in some specific versions of ZC, from a menu now, because the behaviour was in flux during the development phase of the engine in those versions. This is a user-set patch, but you cannot apply it to 2.50 quests, or any version in which the questmaker could set that as a rule.

Same thing for some other old behaviour, such as windrobe spawning.

In hindsight you should probably go to the 3rd quest if you died zero times regardless of other things.

We can fix the 3rd quest if there's actually a bug in it. What screen number, and what would the proposed fix be?

I could add that as a secondary objective, with one line of code. Not a bad idea, and it seems better than having max hearts, as needing max hearts punishes speedrunners. The entire quest order thing is optional as of 2.55 alpha 2 or so, but in 2.53, this wouldn't be out of line.

Back OT: @Joeiiii Are there any enemies wthat drop bombs in the area where Link can be locked?

[Gleeok]

If you play the 3rd quest in 1.92 B183 its actually a lot more difficult than if you play in 2.53. This is because of the enemy weapon half-tile offset. In 1.92 (the version Alpha Dawg wrote and tested the 3rd quest under), combat was a lot more difficult because if Link was a half-tile up, down, left or right from an enemy projectile weapon the game engine still counted that as a "hit" whereas in 2.53 the game engine counts that as a "miss". So, if you're playing the 2.53 version, you're not playing the author's "true" mode - you're playing a nerfed mode that's due to ZC's game engine changing. This should be fixed but I don't think it will because it would be too costly to change the game engine.

I fixed all those bugs in 2.53. I actually fixed them back in 2.50 as well, but due to another bug added later those fixes stopped working.

Very annoying but at least they've been working for a while now.

[James24]

Looks like you're right Zoria - I just copied the old build from 1.92 and it runs fine. But why would Alpha change it like that given his quest was finished under 1.92? Was he the one who changed it? And if so, did he know about this issue when he changed it?

[Nightmare]

Looks like you're right Zoria - I just copied the old build from 1.92 and it runs fine. But why would Alpha change it like that given his quest was finished under 1.92? Was he the one who changed it? And if so, did he know about this issue when he changed it?

Respect to the original game. Alpha knew as many of the mechanics and things as I did at the time, and the half tile trick adds strategy and keeps Blue Wizzrobes and Windrobes from being OP, if you're smart. I added it to Demo EX 2.50 also (Version 3.0 of Demo) and James Quest as well. This is a Zelda 1 mechanic, and a critical one: it belongs in the game.

-James